Wednesday, September 15, 2010

Animal Planet Presents: When Sisters Attack!

Okay, the title is completely tongue in cheek.  My sisters are neither animalistic, nor have they attacked anything.  However, both had a very strong and contrary opinion about my Certificate of Conformity post.  My sister Shayla was so adamant in her response that she wrote a week's worth of blog content just as a response.  While I can't hope to refute even half of what was said, if for no other reason than these are subjective opinions on both sides, I still wanted to recognize the other side of things.  So tonight I'm going to post the highlights of the rebuttal to college degrees being first and foremost a certificate of conformity.

Steph said:
I learned about many subjects I never would have studied on my own, had they not fulfilled a graduation requirement. I'm better informed and more curious about the world around me because I graduated from college.

Last, given the current economy, it's better to have that piece of paper than not. If an employer can choose between two job candidates with equal experience, one degreed and one not, he or she will probably pick the one who learned to be a conformist.
Then, responding to my remark that I could have learned more working for a few years and reading books, Steph said:
My experience in the workplace was that after 8-10 hours in a uniform and nametag, earning $2.10 an hour plus tips serving meals with every element measured down to the ounce, I was too tired to be curious about anything much besides a shower and some sleep.  My only choice, really, was how much to flirt with the customers so I could earn more tips.
Shay made the point that in her field, she actually had to know stuff:
I had to know my subject. Could I have earned an A in microbiology without learning to culture bacteria? Could I have passed Organic Chemistry without understanding molecular chirality? Would I have had a chance in Mammalogy if I had been unable to recognize dentition patterns? In most of my upper-division science classes, I would have failed miserably if I couldn't conduct a research review and synthesize appropriate conclusions.

Sure, I learned to operate under the imposed deadlines. There was some busy work. In the few cases where intensive study failed, and I could not grasp I concept, I learned to accept the "conventional answer" and move on.

However, the skills and knowledge that I obtained in college were in no way secondary to jumping through the hoops. I learned a great deal of information, and developed the skills necessary to interpret it and apply it in new ways. I performed undergraduate research, which required me to think beyond the textbook-regurgitation level.
And while I too had to know stuff, and did research, I felt that this was all secondary to conformity.  Especially since neither of us could work in our field without a graduate degree.

Then Shay started talking about intelligence and said:
As you are the one who turned me on to Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers, I have to quote the passage that this statement brought to mind. Regarding IQ:

"A score of 100 is average; you probably need to be just above that mark to be able to handle college. To get into and succeed in a reasonably competitive graduate program, meanwhile, you probably need an IQ of at least 115. In general, the higher your score, the more education you'll get..."

Now, I didn't minor in statistics or anything, but according to that statement, college graduates ARE smarter, on AVERAGE. (Assuming you accept IQ as a measure of intelligence). Does that mean I'm smarter than the high school drop-out next to me, because I graduated from college? No. First, college didn't make me smarter; I had to be at a certain level of intelligence to succeed. Second, this is just a generality. But job recruiters find generalities very useful.
Well, responding to this section deserves its very own full post (and it will get one), but for now I'll just say that having a high IQ and doing well in graduate school is metaphorically identical to professional soccer players doing well on tests of ability to kick balls.  It's kinda a given, and the test isn't really a fair measure.  But that's as far I can go for now due to time.

Then Shay talked about learning things that she wouldn't have otherwise, and being grateful that she was made to do so:
I understand your point that education should be restricted to preparing you for a vocation, not conforming you to the mold of an ideal citizen. However, I don't think I learned any less in my core science classes because I was also required to take African American Literature. Personally, I'm grateful to have an improved understanding of the history of slavery in the U.S. I would never have paid to take that class on my own time. If this class hammered off any nonconformist hard edges, they were the type I'm glad to be rid of.
Fair enough.  But I would point out that you were probably not allowed to form your own conclusions to any great extent.  You were probably given a perspective.  Maybe not, but that's frequently the case.

Then Shay talked about how her program actually teaches skills, and does not impose a strict hierarchy with the faculty being supreme overlords:
1)The program is designed to allow students of disparate fields to share expertise. Students do not strictly concede to the authority of the professor. 2)Professionals in the field see some added benefit to furthering their education. Work experience is not enough.

As a whole, I have had far more contact with, and learned more from my fellow students than I have my professors. It is impossible for a professor in any of my classes to have the level of knowledge that the class contains as a whole, a fact openly and gladly accepted by the instructors. "Conventional" graduate programs do not follow this model, but many do. Plenty of MBA programs primarily accept working professionals.
Again, fair enough.  But I would argue that this is a trade school model of education and not a classical university model.  Many universities run trade school-style programs because they are more efficient and thus more attractive for people with work experience. 

Shay moved on to speculate on the nature of my frustration concerning my own program:
Perhaps your frustration with the conventionality of your education has stemmed from the focus on research. Of course, many theories (in any field) are merely conventions, which change over time. (Freud would be an excellent example). When a program is heavily mired in research, not practice, convention can trump application. Theories crop up that are not useful, and often incorrect. Research for the sake of research. And you're expected to learn and perpetuate it.
In this particular case, the speculation is inaccurate.  My program has a major focus on clinical skills.  And they do a good job of teaching them.  The point I was trying to make is that the world in general doesn't care whether or not my program effectively teaches skills. That's why two layers of certification exist beyond the Ph.D.  This shows that the world in general does not see a Ph.D. as being proof of expertise in a field.  They see it as me completing another set of hoop jumps that qualifies me to prove finally that I might know something.

Shay talked some more about how gaining knowledge is useless without the ability to share it and use it:
My point is, reading is great and all, but it leaves gaps. Without an expert in the field (read: instructor) giving you comprehensive coverage of the subject, you learn only what is interesting to you. You don't get the whole picture, though you might think you do. You don't know what you don't know.

Additionally, you're never required to use your knowledge. Discussing new knowledge with fellow students and teachers is invaluable, as is applying it to new purposes.
Yes, but a non-university model that allows such back and forth without an "expert" saying how it really works is the Unitarian church.  Everyone's got an opinion, nobody's is the best.  If universities were serious about education and not indoctrination, they'd make sure every class was taught by experts with opposing views on a subject, who then slugged it out intellectually over the course of a semester.  Coming from a paid teacher, believe me, my students leave my course with my point of view or nothing.  They may not like me, or my viewpoints, but there's no way they're coming out agreeing with all the counterpoints to my views - mostly because they'll never know what those counterpoints are.

Ultimately, Shay's overall point was that:
Cliche as it sounds, college has provided the kind of environment in which I can participate in "free thinking and exploration." This is both within the classroom and through the jobs for which I am now qualified. Aaaaand, I don't accept that I am simply an exception to the rule.
And my response is the same one I gave Steph.  I think that people who choose to make the most of college can use it to learn and grow far beyond what they may have been without college.  However, I don't think that is a requirement, and I don't think that even the majority of people have that experience.  I think that most people learn a ton of stuff that they would rather not, and then proceed to have a massive information dump once they no longer need that information to pass a class.

I'm happy that for a great many people (but not a majority), that scenario is dead wrong.  But it's what I saw most people doing when I was an undergrad, and it's what I see most of my undergrad students doing.  For anyone who does more - congratulations.  You are overachievers in the most literal sense.

13 comments:

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  2. So, Ryno, do you actually regret going to college? Do you really wish our university system would be scrapped? That life in the US should be a huge "Learn on Your Own" experiment? (Because those have worked so well when attempted in elementary/high school settings.)

    And you really think that most people would become more broad-minded, better-informed citizens while working poorly paid jobs where every picky little thing they do, down to their footwear, gets dictated?

    How would such a system work? How massive would an employer's (or patient's, or client's) vetting process have to be to find a decent accountant or doctor?

    And what about Sam's experience in grad school? It sucked, but he learned a lot of useful chemistry.

    I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. The system isn't perfect, and I'm sorry you've had a bad experience, but I don't think you can generalize it to just about everyone but me and Shay.

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  3. Just read your comment that you're hoping to send your oldest to college. I assume, therefore, that part of the rant against said institution was, in part, just letting off a little steam.

    The good thing I've got out of this whole discussion is reflecting on all the fun classes I took and how they've broadened my outlook on the world, made me a better mom, citizens, human being, etc. It's been a good reminder.

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  5. "I hate anthropology."

    All kinds? I found physical anthropology interesting. I can't say knowing that people of European decent tend to have triangular-shaped tibiae has made me a better person, but it's a terrific conversation starter (jk).

    OTOH, Cultural A. was utterly sleep-inducing.

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  7. (I stink at editing myself for typos)

    Being as I'm doing a lot of job-related things on the internet(s) atm, I have more time to comment on the comments than Ryno does.

    The original post was about conforming to the university system in order to obtain diplomas. THAT POINT HAS NOT IN ANY WAY BEEN DISPROVED.

    No one suggested that "life in the US" (meaning structured learning/education?) should be a "Learn on Your Own" experiment. Neither did anyone suggest "scrapping" the university system. I am suggesting the university system needs a drastic makeover.

    Improving the system (in the U.S.) would result in more citizens getting high paying jobs (where they can choose their own footwear) and the country being more competitive in the global economy.

    Almost every grad student's experience sucks because they are overworked, underpaid, and taken advantage of. As Ryno pointed out, the degree to which the individuals learn is determined by them, not the system. And of course every student has to exhibit some proficiency, otherwise they would get booted out of the program.

    Umm, Ryno is certainly not generalizing about everyone but Steph and Shay. The problems he has pointed out are very well-documented. The system is broken, to what degree is subjective. Being as I am not the blogmaster, I won't post links to prove Ryno's various points.

    I found this part to be problematic:

    "I assume, therefore, that part of the rant against said institution was, in part, just letting off a little steam."

    I don't think any of Ryno's posts constitute "ranting": to rant is "to speak or write in an angry or violent manner; rave" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ranting). And I wouldn't assume Ryno's emotional/mental state while he was constructing his posts.

    I plan on telling my kids exactly what is expected of them and WHY in college. Ryno's posts have given me some great points to pass along.

    If anyone feels their time, effort, and money were well-spent in obtaining their college diploma, they're right. Being a better parent, citizen, and human being are all arguably as important as emerging into the job market as a qualified, competent worker.

    But then again we have to ask, "What is the central mission for the university educational system?" Is it working for that intended purpose?

    P.S. - Michael, you would fail miserably at picking up Female Me in a bar.

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  8. (Originally this was Comment #1 but I had to edit out Ryno's real life name)

    First off, and this pertains to all sibs, our family has a tendency to be way too literal and run rabid on tangents that end up miles from the original intent. I've had this tendency pointed out to me (regarding me) by significant others and I then realized all my siblings do it to some degree. I'll get some heat for this but I don't mind :)

    No, I am NOT suggesting Shay is rabid (I have become rabid on occasion) and she made some great points on how formal education can be a great thing. Still, all Ryno's original points stand.

    Shay's experience isn't the norm. Most students do the minimum to get whatever grade they're aiming for and then dump the information from their brains as soon as it isn't needed. They conform for a short period. They then conform to the next set of demands. And so on.

    A shocking amount of students either won't or can't conform. They get bad grades and/or drop out. They don't get a degree. The system doesn't adapt to individual student's needs - almost never to any great degree at the undergraduate level (at a university) and in a small percentage of post-grad programs. Is this group less intelligent than those who get the degrees? I don't think generalizing in this case would result in useful conclusions but I'll let Ryno tackle it.

    Unfortunately for me, being forced to take classes and learn subjects I'm not interested in triggers an instinctual and biological reaction to disconnect. I don't try to rebel. I either become too bored to engage or feel intense repugnance towards the ideas and perspectives some professor is imposing.

    Can I just take the classes that pertain to my chosen discipline, please? Can I select all the courses I think are necessary to round-out my education?

    Inevitably I become the prodigy, the teacher's pet, in the classes I enjoy. I disappear in the classes I dislike.

    Why can I earn a grade of 125% (the next highest grade in the class was a 92%) in one of the hardest classes I've ever taken and then tank on some intro anthropology course? Well, I never cracked the book or took notes and got a high C on the first test and THEN I dropped the class. I hate anthropology.

    Anyway, I knew plenty of students similar to Shay who enjoyed the diversity of college and excelled. The system worked for them. Yay. It didn't work for me.

    In Bozeman I associated with friends and ward members with advanced degrees and impressive academic careers. Nothing put a smile on my face like trouncing one of them at a game of intellect during a Christmas party.

    I can't conform very well so I console myself with just being smart.

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  10. So many counter-arguments and "You didn't refute my points!" swimming around in my head. Too tired to care. Go to college, don't go. Graduate, don't graduate.

    With all due respect, love, and undying affection, I'm done with this comment thread.

    I have hoops to go jump through of a different sort.

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  11. Me, or anyone else here, going to college or graduating isn't the point except for how our experiences demonstrate characteristics of the university system. The real story is told on a much larger scale.

    Spirited debating takes time and energy, both in short supply for busy parents.

    I do hope Ryno comes back and finishes this thread.

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  12. I wouldn't mind seeing him around as well.

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  13. Steph - I hardly want you to feel like I'm failing to answer your assertions. If you want to point things out, I won't take offense.

    As far as defending my own viewpoint, Jason's done a fine job of that. There are a couple of original points I'll put in the next post. And I'll make that my last on the topic unless you would like to discuss things further. But I hate the idea of monopolizing the discussion or failing to recognize specific viewpoints just because it's MY blog and I can.

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